So, you must be wondering, what did ATOC say in reply to Clive's initial letter? Well, for a long time - nothing.
Eventually, after a phone call to the Office of the Rail Regulator to ask them how long a reply should take, something arrived.
ASSOCIATION of TRAIN OPERATING COMPANIES25 September 1998 Dear Mr Feather NATIONAL ROUTEING GUIDE Thank you for your letter of 31 July. I am sorry for the delay in replying, but it has been necessary to analyse the Routeing Guide in detail to compile a comprehensive response to the points you raise. Firstly, I can confirm that your initial analysis of the types of permitted route, and the steps to be applied in determining the route, are correct. Qu.1: Using map AS, is London-Glasgow via Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Inverness a permitted route? Map AS is different from the other maps in that it states (in red capital letters): "Only for through journeys from or via London to Scotland." Route AS is intended to apply to long distance journeys such as London-Glasgow or London-Inverness, and is not designed to cater for deviations within Scotland such as the "via Inverness" that you suggest. If you look up the permitted route from Edinburgh to Glasgow, it is FC, and the map for this shows that the most northerly route permitted is via Larbert. You should take this as also applying on map AS for London-Glasgow journeys, although I realise the ruling on this may not be entirely clear from perusing the Guide. Incidentally, Step 4 (page A3) is not relevant here because, as you correctly point out, London and Glasgow are themselves both routeing points. Qu.2: Does Step 4 rule apply other than for the routeing points associated with the origin and destination? No, it does not. In any case, I am not sure what the purpose would be in determining fares between routeing points other than those associated with the origin and destination. Qu.3: If required to check fares other than routeing points associated with origin and destination, which fares do I check? This question has been answered above. As to your specific query regarding London-Carlisle via Inverness (routes LM+ER), the Fares Manual must be also be consulted. In the case of London-Carlisle, there are various fares shown, none of which has route "any permitted". The fare routed "via Newcastle" is the one applicable to routes LM+ER. I take this to mean that the appropriate route is from London to Newcastle, and then across to Carlisle; not via a roundabout route via Inverness. Qu.4: Where a ticket is routed via an intermediate station (or London), how are permitted routes determined? This is answered on page A2 "How to Determine Permitted Routes":
Qu.5: What are the permitted routes where a ticket is routed "not London"; in particular, what if the only route given in the Guide is "London"? In this case, you can use the ticket via London. The routes "London" and "not London" are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Qu.6: If a permitted route involves two or more maps, is it necessary to use all those maps? Yes; if, for example, the route codes between two routeing points shown in Section C are CS+MM, then both these maps must be used. The fact that both the first and the final routeing points happen to be on the same map does not automatically mean that a route using just that map is a permitted route. Step 7 (page A5) is clear on this, and Section F page F9 gives an example (Ashford-Lincoln). Qu.7: Where more than one map is involved, is there a specified order in which they should be applied? Step 7 on page A5 states that all maps need to be consulted in sequential order. For example, one of the route combinations for Guildford to Aberdeen is ER+CE+CS. On consulting the maps, it will be seen that this order is actually in the direction Aberdeen to Guildford, but this doesn't matter. What is not allowed is to change the order of the sequence itself, i.e. the order ER+CS+CE would not be permitted. Qu.8: Group Stations - relaxation of rules: travelling from Sandy to Royston, can I go via Stevenage rather than Hitchin, given that both these stations form a group? Yes, this is permitted, because in this case neither the origin nor the destination station is in the Group concerned (see "Group Stations", page A6). Qu.9: Can a journey involve a walk between stations? Some journeys must involve a walk between stations; for example, the fare from Watford Junction to Harpenden is routed "St Albans Abbey" - this must involve a walk between St Albans Abbey and St Albans. As regards permitted routes in the Routeing Guide, there is nothing to prevent a customer using a route that involves a walk between stations (one is not breaking the "no doubling back" rule by doing this). I trust the above information is helpful. Yours sincerely [signed] Tel: 0171 904 3036 |
Well, well, well. What an interesting reply.
The answer to the original question seems to have been made up out of thin air. Mr Stevens introduces a requirement to consult map FC and states "the ruling on this may not be entirely clear from perusing the guide". This has to be the understatement of the year! Our readers didn't understand the ruling at all. Why does the potential traveller need to look up Edinburgh to Glasgow? Why not Perth to Glasgow? Is there any logic in this?
And what an interesting claim that map AS is somehow special. Looking at the map, the red text is just to point out that it is not for use for journeys like Leeds to Glasgow. There's nothing in the rules making it special.
Now look at the second part of the response to question 3. Here Mr. Stevens invokes the routeing on the ticket, which he is allowed to do. However, his answer to question 4 contradicts his answer here: the route LM+ER does go via Newcastle.
The answer to question 4 quotes directly from the book. However, both the book and Mr. Stevens miss an important point. What if there are no permitted routes via the station named on the ticket ? As a simple example, what is the route for Leeds to London via Manchester (a ticketed flow)?
The answer to question 5 astounded our expert. ATOC are saying that, in certain cases, a "not London" ticket should be used via London!
But our expert is not one to give up so easily. This reply deserves a response.