So I'd spent some time thinking, and even written a list of issues. Now was the time to prod ATOC another time.
|
[Address deleted] Dear Mr Stevens, I have previously written to you with various queries concerning the ATOC Routeing Guide. I and others have now carried out a detailed study of the guide and have identified a number of situations where it is not possible to determine whether a route is valid or not because the Guide is either ambiguous or fails to mention the issue. You have stated previously that you do not see a need to answer hypothetical questions. However, these matters are generic and not just applicable to a specific route. Both myself and others have found ourselves possibly having to pay higher fares because the Guide did not make the situation clear. As a frequent user of the railways I do not consider this to be an acceptable situation. In a previous letter you also stated:
I have failed to see any evidence of such a system to date. Therefore I am writing this letter to you clearly describing the matters at issue; please note that all examples in the following are just that - examples - and it is the underlying questions that need answering. I will expect a detailed and clear response by 31st August 1999, failing which I will be raising the matter with the Rail Regulator. Since you have performed an analysis of the Guide in response to my previous letters, this should not be an onerous limit. I have also copied this letter to both Modern Railways, the website http://www.rossrail.co.uk, and the newsgroup uk.railway. Yours sincerely, signed Clive D.W. Feather Notes: in the following, all examples of locations, routes, and fares are examples to illustrate an underlying issue. Details are accurate to the best of my knowledge, but where not a similar situation should be considered. Each item is identified by a two letter code. Where the question covers two or more situations with different answers, please provide an explanation sufficient to allow the correct answer to be determined in other cases. It should be assumed throughout that, except where mentioned otherwise, the ticket type used has no extraneous restrictions (so in question DA, the ticket is not one forbidding break of journey) and that no other unrelated issues (e.g. diversions due to track work) apply. Where the term "walk" appears, it means any form of journey between two stations including but not limited to walking, car, bus, and even rail transport using another ticket. If different rules apply to some of these, please indicate the distinctions. [DA] Can I break my journey when travelling on a direct train from origin to destination that does not follow the shortest route or a route on the maps, assuming I resume my journey on another such train ? [DB] Some services run through the same station twice on the same journey (an example being the loop services from Waterloo via places such as Strawberry Hill). If such a train is a direct train for my journey, can I make the unnecessary part of the journey ? For example, with a Waterloo to Clapham Junction ticket, can I travel all round the loop on the way ? [DC] In the above situation, can I break my journey during the unnecessary portion, such as at Wimbledon in the example ? (Questions SA to SC assume that there are no permitted routes other than the shortest route and no direct trains not following the shortest route.) [SA] If there are no trains on the shortest route and no direct trains, what are the permitted routes ? Examples of this situation are:
[SB] If there are no trains on the shortest route on the day of travel (e.g. on a Sunday), what are the permitted routes ? In particular, can the shortest route on which there is a train be used, or is the ticket invalid ? In the latter case, what if there is no other fare for that journey ? [SC] In a similar vein, what if the last train of the day on the shortest route has already gone ? In particular, what if there is only one train per day or per week ? [SD] If the shortest route might be via London, what distance should be allowed for the cross-London journey when making the determination ? What about other journeys involving a transfer on foot between stations (e.g. Birmingham New Street to Moor Street)? [SE] Can the shortest route require a walk between stations? For example, is the shortest route from Stevenage to Ware found by assuming walking between the two Hertford stations, or is it via Cambridge or via London ? If walking is to be required, when is it required, which stations are involved, and what distance does the walk count as? [MA] If a route between two routeing point is constructed by following the map or maps given in the Guide, and does not pass through the same station twice, is it automatically a Permitted Route without any other conditions applying ? For example, all of the following routes follow the indicated map but would not be seen as reasonable by many people:
[MB] Why is it that on map ER Cambridge and Ely are shown as being connections to maps CN and WA, while on map WA they are shown as CN only? Does this affect whether I can change from WA to ER there? [WA] Map WA shows the Enfield Town and Hertford East branches. It is not possible to use these branches as part of a journey between two routeing points unless one walks between stations (e.g. from Hertford East to Hertford North). This implies that such a walk can be part of a Permitted Route. Is this in fact the case ? Does this mean that a journey from Finsbury Park to Cambridge (map WA) can be made via Crews Hill, Hertford North, Hertford East, Broxbourne, and Stansted Airport ? [WB] While there are some routes where walking is a part of the obvious journey, there are others where it is less so but could nonetheless be used to construct a desired route. Can a walk between any two stations be included as part of a journey ? For example, could a journey from London to York (map ER) be made via Peterborough to Newark, then walk to Sleaford, then via Lincoln and Doncaster ? [WC] If it is not always permitted to walk between stations, which pairs of stations may be walked between as part of a Permitted Route ? [LA] Consider a journey that is routed via London Underground (as indicated by a maltese cross on the ticket). Such journeys involve a change at one of a list of stations. If the origin or destination of the journey is such a transfer station (e.g. Finsbury Park to Southampton), can the journey start or end on London Underground, or must there be two journeys on National Railways ? Does it matter if the origin or destination is a routeing point ? [LB] As an extension to this, if both endpoints are transfer stations, can the entire journey be made on London Underground using a National Railways ticket ? [LC] If the journey passes through the same station twice, but once on National Railways and once on London Underground (e.g. Highbury and Islington to Finsbury Park, change, and then return on the Victoria Line), does it count as "doubling back" ? [RA] When a ticket carries a specific route (e.g. "via Manchester"), there are two basic possibilities. The first is that the named intermediate station is on at least one Permitted Route, while the second is that the named station is "off route". The Guide states:
This is an adequate description of the first case but implies that there are no valid routes for the second. Assuming that this is not the intention, what are the valid routes in this case ? [RB] There are certain situations where either "not London" tickets are more expensive than "Any Permitted", or where the shortest route is via London, there are no direct trains, and the mapped routes are all via London (one example of this is Reading to Beckenham Junction). Will you please confirm your previous statement that the ticket can be used via London ? (Obviously the ticket would not include travel on LU). [RC] If a ticket from London to Cambridge were routed "not via Royston", would it be legitimate to take the service that goes through Royston but walk from Ashwell & Morden to Meldreth ? [RD] Does a "not via X" route apply to direct trains and/or the shortest route, or only to routes constructed using the maps ? [TA] There are two sets of routes on map ER for London to Peterborough: via Sandy and via Cambridge. There is a WAGN-specific fare for this journey. WAGN operate trains via Sandy, but not via Cambridge, but they do operate trains on part of that route - from London to Ely. Is it permitted to use this ticket to travel from London to Ely ? In general, when using a TOC-specific ticket, must the permitted route be operated throughout by the TOC, or can the ticket be used on routes only partially operated by the TOC (obviously only on that section of the route) ? [ZA] There exist partial-zonal tickets, such as the London Travelcard, where a ticket offering unlimited travel in a zone is combined with a ticket for travel from a start point to the edge of the zone. How is the route for the latter part of the ticket determined ? One suggestion is that the route to the "centre" of the zone is used (London Terminals for a London Travelcard). Another is that it is any route that would be a part of a journey from the outer station to any station in the zone. For example, with a Reading Travelcard, does the traveller look at the routes from Reading to London, or can a route from Reading to Surbiton (which might be different) be used to reach zone 6 ? Note that such zonal tickets exist outside London. [PA] A season ticket carries the text:
(some ticket stock uses the words "reasonable route" instead). On the other hand, National Condition of Carriage 28 words it slightly differently:
In some cases there is an intermediate station that has a permitted route to one endpoint that is not a permitted route between the endpoints (for example, Peterborough to London Terminals is valid only to Liverpool Street or King's Cross, Stevenage is an intermediate station on one of these routes, but Stevenage to London Terminals is also valid to Moorgate). In these cases can the season ticket be used on the additional route ? [PB] If there are two alternative routes between the endpoints with a cross-route that is not a permitted route between the endpoints, is the season ticket valid for travel on that cross-route or must the journey be made via the endpoint ? For example, can a Cambridge to London Terminals season ticket be used to travel from Stratford to Broxbourne by walking between the two Hertford stations (assuming that that is a valid route between Hertford North and Broxbourne) rather than travelling via Cambridge or London ? [CA] The National Conditions of Carriage permit a journey to be made by combining two or more tickets. In most cases the train must stop at the point where the ticket "in use" changes, but there are cases when it need not. In these situations, must the route taken be that valid for each ticket, or can it be a route that only applies to the journey as a whole ? For example, can I travel from Cambridge to Finsbury Park via Hertford North (other than on a direct train) using Cambridge to Stevenage and Stevenage to Finsbury Park tickets (Hertford North is not a valid route for the latter) ? [CB] If it is not necessary to stop at the changeover station, is it still necessary to travel via that station or can some other permitted route be taken ? For example, can a direct Cambridge to Finsbury Park (via Welwyn) train be used when the tickets used are Cambridge to Hertford North and Hertford North to Finsbury Park (e.g. when one of them is a season ticket). |
This produced a fairly quick reply.